Fantastic discourse on a modern day innovation, that needed to be addressed. Many are being lead astray by this teaching. This message needs to be heard on a larger forum. Good Job Dr, Pres, Jeannie!

Dear Presvitera Constantinou.I heard your explanation of the Rupture,and now I'm clear of the message.It was wonderful andvery informative.Thank you so much.God bless you,say hello to Fr Costa.
Kisses
Bill

I listened to part 6 on the Rapture. I found it interesting and not too surprising. But, the inventor of such a thesis is never identified. Personally, I'd like to be able to review the individual and his or her writings.
Could you identify the Rapture story inventor, please?

The creator of Beyond the Veil is Dr. Jeannie Constantinou.

Forgive me, let me better clarify. I know the creator of Beyond the Veil is Dr. Jeannie Constantinou. In this iPod MP3 episode, she talks about the Rapture concept as being a "fevered imagination of just one person" in the late 1800s. But that person (i.e., the inventor in The Rapture - An Invention of Man) is never identified. Who is she talking about as the late 1800s Rapture discourse inventor?

Ah I see. The inventor of modern dispensationalism is John Nelson Darby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

Dr. Pres. Jeannie, This was a great explanation and I have more clarity on the subject. It is sad to know that people don't understand that our church is guided by the Holy Spirit; through the Apostels, the Saints and down to the Fathers of the Church. Christ says where there are two or more gathered "in my name" know that I am there with you. The Ecumenical councils served not only to define many of the fundamental teachings of the early church, but also to stamp out many heretical views dominant at the time. I just hope and pray people start taking an active role in learning the why's of our church beliefs and stop being all too keen on beleiving the false testimonies of seemingly educated people like John N. Darby. and countless others like him.
God Bless

While I liked your explanation of how the historic church has valued faithfulness in the face of persecution and suffering and how the Rapture mentality is the polar opposite I found your talk on the whole Rapture thing surprisingly incomplete. I was shocked that you did not deal w/ what are the major passages for the Rapture like I Thess. 4:15-17. Understand, I quit believing in the Rapture years before I converted to Orthodoxy but if one is to deal fully w/ this teaching you must deal w/ passages like the Thess. ones.

Hallelujah! Thank you for clarifying. The Holy Spirit is truly moving the Doctor!

I didn't follow what bearing I Thess. 4:15-17 has on the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture story? Is there some hidden meaning that is ascribed to it in fundamentalist circles?

That vs. is believed by the Rapture folks as being thee description of the Rapture itself.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

While this gives no hint of this activity being "Pre-Trib" it is what they believe is a description of the Rapture itself. It really is a fundamental vs. in this theology and I was surprised Miss Jeannie didn't deal w/ it at all. Mind you, I'm a big fan of her teachings. This was not meant as a nasty critique.

Dr. Jeannie,
Thank you for teaching on this subject. From the comments posted, it appears that many of your listeners are Orthodox. Having grown up Protestant in the USA, I would like to offer my story for consideration by you and your listeners.

My memory of the church I grew up in is that it rarely (if ever) taught on end-times or even the Lord's return. The focus was mostly on how to live your life today. It was a mix of the latest Christian books, psychology, what others were teaching, and the Bible (in that order). I excelled in learning these things - I call myself a Sunday School prodigy! Unfortunately, it was all academic knowledge, not a relationship with our Lord Jesus. On top of that, there were many fundamental questions of the faith that no one could seem to answer.

When I went off to college, I hooked up with a Christian para-church group. They had answers to my questions and pointed me to the simple truth of the Bible as sole authority. Things made much more sense with the more complete and comprehensive teaching they offered. I was becoming an Evangelical.

At the same time, I began to explore many of the 'holes' in the teaching I received in my home church. One that I latched on to was the study of what would happen at the end of the age around the time Jesus returns. My home church had nothing on the matter, nor did anyone else there have any useful information. Their knowledge was just a 'holey' as mine was. I turned to whatever else I could find. I devoured Christian television, books, movies, and radio. I learned two main things from these sources: 1. the topic is confusing (but *I* can explain it to you!) and 2. pre-trib is definitely the way it is. Every other interpretation is just silly! So, I latched on whole-heartedly.

As the years passed, I read the Bible more and more for myself and my relationship with Jesus deepened. I began to see inconsistencies between the Evangelical teachings and the Bible itself and what the Holy Spirit was showing me. Frustrated by again being taught flawed 'truth', I quit church altogether because it was getting in the way instead of bringing me closer to my Savior. Even worse, no one seemed to notice the lack of Truth, nor care! The only exception was a small Bible study I started. Providentially, those He brought together were all honest seekers and recognized the same issues I did. They still continue and grow closer to our Lord Jesus and learn from the Holy Spirit to this day.

In the last three years, my family and I have moved to another city. We have not sought another church to attend. Having to rely on the Holy Spirit and scripture alone, we have grown much in that time. He has pointed us to a few teachers online and through other media. Over time, He has gradually untangled many of the lies I believed including my beliefs about prophecy and the events around Jesus' return. Today, I am frustrated when I look back and see that nearly nothing I was taught on this topic (and many others!) was true. If it had not been for the patient revelation of our Lord and the Teacher of the Church, I would still be wallowing in ignorance and unbelief! Thank you, Lord!

As a result of His patient teaching, I have come to realize that very little of what I had believed is True. I am now searching scripture for the Truth on this and other matters. In fact, I am just about to finish a study of Daniel's prophecies and visions on the subject. It is in this context that I providentially 'stumbled' upon "Beyond the Veil". I think Dr. Jeannie's discussion about the rapture is a big nail in the (escapist) rapture's coffin. I am now about 99% sure the (escapist) rapture is not True. I will know for sure when I complete my long-term study of the end of the age in the whole scripture.

Thank you, Dr. Jeannie!

Great podcast! I am currently an evangelical exploring the ancient faith and one of the things that always bothered me was how new the doctrine of the rapture was. And that is why I don't believe it.

Two points- you mentioned that the Gospel of Mathew was the starting point for the doctrine...actually it is 1Thes 4:17 which talks about being "caught up" in the clouds and the book of Daniel is heavily cited by the Rapture crowd, besides the revelation of St. John. In Fact, they get their time line from the Book of Daniel .

Also, I would be careful not to ascribe the motivation as to why they believe. Although Evangelicals are in error, I do not believe it is just a desire to be part of an exclusive club. (The orthodox, too, claim to be part of an exclusive club). Most evangelicals I know, believe in the rapture because they truly want Christ to return and to be with Him. Evangelicals may be ignorant of Church history but their love for Christ is genuine and one, I believe, Christ Himself will honor.

Hi Dr. Jeannie Constantinou, Can you please provide me some further commentary on what this passage may be describing? It would be helpful in my study group. I am an Orthodox christian who has many evangelical friends. I know there are many divisive topics among us Christians. This topic of course is one of them. Where can we find additional information regarding the interpration regarding this passage? Thank you.

Hi Group!

Please forgive me for not checking in sooner. Actually, someone wrote to me through Ancient Faith Radio and told me that there were comments and questions posted for me on OCN. After I submit the recordings to OCN, I don't return to the OCN site, so I did not know! So, please accept my apologies - I did not intend to ignore anyone's questions or the discussion.

First, thank you for the compliments and constructive criticism on the podcast. I have not sent a new one recently, but I intend to soon, and expect to pick up the pace.

Some of you already answered the questions - such as the identity of the originator of the "rapture" concept. Clearly, this is a very smart group.

About 1 Thessalonians, I thought I had addressed that. The fact is, I was aware that Evangelicals use it to justify the rapture, but I am amazed at that usage of the passage. The passage is clearly and obviously referring to what happens to those who have already fallen asleep when the Lord returns. Will they be with the Lord or not if they hadn't survived until the Lord's return? That is the passage we read during the funeral service of the Orthodox Church. St. Paul was not creating a scenario in which some people would be snatched up to be with the Lord while everyone else would remain on earth to endure some sort of tribulation. This is an image of the very end, not the beginning of a prolonged end.

Hi Jeannie, glad you'll be coming out w/ more stuff soon! Concerning the I Thess. passage. The critical vs. for the Rapture folks that deals w/ the living is vs. 14:

17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

While there is not Pre-Trib timing of this event given in this passage, this is believed by them to be describing the Rapture itself and what will happen to the living.

I'm glad to hear you'll soon return to this series. Just wanted to post a clarification to your response so that you can fully deal w/ the Rapture folk's position. You said:

The passage is clearly and obviously referring to what happens to those who have already fallen asleep when the Lord returns.

But in vs. 17 it is dealing w/ the living:

17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This vs. is describing exactly what they believe is going to happen to those Christians who are alive at Christ's post first, pre-second coming.;-) While they will admit that this passage does not explicitly deal w/ timing in the sense of a Pre-Trib time frame, it is believed that the description of the living being caught up in the air is what happens w/ the Rapture.

Obviously, St. Paul is referring to the living when he speaks of those who are still alive when the Lord returns. You misunderstood what I am saying. My point is that St. Paul was writing to the Thessalonians in this first epistle to explain what would happen to those who had fallen asleep. That was their concern. Why is that important? Because that is the CONTEXT in which his statements are made. Context is of primary importance when it comes to biblical interpretation. We cannot take comments intended to address one issue and apply them to another. He is not intending to give a comprehensive explanation of the end times, only to reassure and comfort those Thessalonians who had loved ones that had already fallen asleep.

Obviously, those who are still alive will be caught up.
The Lord will not require those of us who are still alive to die first in order to be with him. That's basically what Paul is saying. St. Paul was not intending to support the type of scenario which is currently promoted by those who cite this passage for the "rapture" as that term is used today.

To use this passage from 1 Thess in this way is a misuse of the passage because the context is being changed. As is often the case, people are taking a verse from here and a verse from there to very creatively construct a scenario according to their own imagination. Such a scenario of the rapture stands in fundamental disagreement and conflict with the "clear parts" of scripture in which the return of the Lord is the END - not the beginning of the end times.

T.L.Frazier´s book, "A Second Look at the Second Coming" is excellant to see all the movements & groups throughout history that speculated on Jesus´ return. Conciliar Press published it.

I believe there are two reasons for why people hold (even stubbornly) to the idea of the Rapture.

1. Those who like me, who have and are struggling through life, and the idea of a Rapture proposes a hope of escape (or escapism). These are people who have no understanding of embracing pain and death to this world to gain the life to come. This may be due to ignorance due to lack of in-depth teaching within the local western churches or with our American microwave society, the "easy" way out is the accepted.

2. Those who push the idea of the Rapture to gain power, prestige, or money. Trying to discuss with these individual (as I have in the the past) does not profit, no sound argument (most circular argument) can be given. These are the ones who constantly update their end-time prognosis to fit the moment in time.

Thank you for such a clear articulation of this heresy. I've always felt that this was part of the 'cheap grace' that Dietrich Bonhoeffer so astutely wrote about. So many Christians want salvation without any cost or suffering to themselves. It's as if they feel entitled to go up on an easy elevator or on a magic carpet because they feel in their hearts that they are such special lovers of God. They may indeed feel much passion and love for God, but even Christ and His Apostles had to undergo terrible sufferings. Are any of us 'more worthy' or more passionate about God than Christ and His Apostles?

Jesus himself described the rapture in Matthew 24 in what is known as the Olivet Discourse:

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Those are the very words of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. Paul also described the rapture in detail in 1Thessalonians Chapter 4:

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

So you can see the concept of the rapture is as old as the Word of God, it is not new. Any arguement you have about the rapture is with scripture itself and not those of us who believe the Word of God.

Hi Tom and welcome -

You said:

So you can see the concept of the rapture is as old as the Word of God, it is not new. Any arguement you have about the rapture is with scripture itself and not those of us who believe the Word of God.

Everything you quote from the Bible relates to the Second Coming. The Orthodox believe in the Second Coming as a fact. We recite it at the end of the Creed each Divine Liturgy. "He is coming again in Glory to judge the Living and the Dead, His kingdom shall have no end."

What is new about the Rapture (among other things) is the idea that Jesus won't just come again - but that He will actually come 2 more times! The Rapture postulates that Jesus will show up 'secretly' and deliver the Christians at the beginning of the Tribulation. He will then show up again 'for real' when it is time to destroy the Earth and refound a new Heaven and a New Earth.

That is completely new, and dates back to John Darby, or perhaps an author in Pennsylvania in 1788, or maybe a feverish woman named Mary MacDonald. The fact is that a two-stage 2nd coming of Christ is at most, a little over 200 years old. That misses the Apostolic Age by 1,700 odd years. In short, the idea of a two-stage coming of Jesus is a modern invention. It was never taught in the ancient church.

The fact is that not only the Orthodox Church rejects the Rapture. Most Protestants do as well, and in fact, the great exponent of the teaching, John Darby, was not universally supported even in his church:

The doctrine of a secret rapture was first conceived by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren in 1827. Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism, invented the doctrine claiming there were not one, but two "second comings." This teaching was immediately challenged as unbiblical by other members of the Brethren. Samuel P. Tregelles, a noted biblical scholar, rejected Darby's new interpretation as the "height of speculative nonsense." So tenuous was Darby's rapture theory that he had lingering doubts about it as late as 1843, and possibly 1845. Another member of the Plymouth Brethren, B.W. Newton, disputed Darby's new doctrine claiming such a conclusion was only possible if one declared certain passages to be "renounced as not properly ours."

Don't just read a Biblical text and say, "This supports the Rapture!" Rather, look at the Biblical text and ask, "What did the Fathers of the Church and other Christians 2,000 years say about this Biblical text?" What you will find is that they said nothing of the kind about a two-step second coming.

rapture of the faithful before the Great Tribulation is a cute idea, which one can derive from the Bible. No-one wants to suffer. That's why it sells. People who think they keep their own faith apart from the faith of the Apostles fall into a trap of novelty and prideful imaginative righteousness "by faith alone". The doctrine of Christ's coming twice, once in the clouds and then onto Earth is logical, but is not supported by the Apostles the way some Protestants wish. THis was not revealed to Apostles, Church Fathers, other Saints or Councils of Church. Nineteenth century is riddled with new teachings coming from Western Europe and North America. Main principle of Protestantism: "I understand the Bible the same way the Apostles did" is a fruit of imagination, rebellion and pride. Lord, have mercy.

Darby is noted in the theological world as the father of "dispensationalism," later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible. Charles Henry Mackintosh, 1820-1896, with his popular style spread Darby's teachings to humbler elements in society and may be regarded as the journalist of the Brethren Movement. CHM popularised Darby more than any other Brethren author. Darby is sometimes credited with originating, the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation. Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again," and they believe that in His grace he will do so according to their understanding of Old Testament prophecy. They believe that, while the ways of God may change, His purposes to bless Israel will never be forgotten, just as He has shown unmerited favour to the Church, He will do so to a remnant of Israel to fulfill all the promises made to the genetic seed of Abraham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby

or "I don't like your gig, I will form my own. Never mind Church Fathers"

How true! But there are many evangelicals who do not believe in the rapture or the whole dispensational interpretation of Scripture. One book which details the development of this false teaching is "The Incredible Cover-up" by Dave MacPherson, published in 1975 by Omega Publications of Medford OR. It's incredible how many believe this teaching. Just the explosive sales of the "Left Behind" series of books shows the interest in it. It's sad that people never question where the church has stood historically on doctrines.

Hello! Thank you so much for your teaching about the so-called Rapture. I first heard about it years ago, and thought it was ridiculous, and that opinion has not changed. Unfortuately all Christians (myself included) can and do out-scribe the Scribes and make Pharisees seem like an open-minded group of believers! Thank you for the education you are bringing to us!

Darby is the "father" of Dispensationalism, but the "rapture" itself comes from the dreams of a young Pentecostal girl, Margaret MacDonald. She had a "vision" in which she saw the Lord take the Church away before the capital-T Tribulation. Kooky.

Dr. Constantinou,

What is your opinion on the following book by an Orthodox writer?

Christ's Millennial Reign and the Rapture of His Church By Dennis Eugene Engleman. Regina Orthodox Press

Stephanos

Hi All

Thank you for the kind comments and even the slightly critical ones. They are all helpful. First, even though this discussion is going on amongst you, and I am glad, please be advised that I don't check the site often to see your comments or questions. So do understand that my lack of response is not because I am ignoring yo. Its just that I don't check the messages very often. Luckily someone wrote to me at the university and alerted me to the questino posed by Stephanos which led me to check out what comments have been posted lately.

I would like to say that I am very impressed with the level of understanding and the high caliber of the dialogue. Even though I did not respond right away to the questions and comments posted, others did and gave excellent replies. Good for you! About the last question, regarding the book "Christ's Millennial Reign..." by Regina Press, I don't know anything about it. Have not read it, so I don't know what it says. Regina is an Orthodox press, so I would hope that the book is Orthodox, but sometimes that is not a guarantee. There are also fringe elements among the Orthodox. So, I will get the book and see what it says and get back to you - OK, Stephanos?

Jeannie

Sir i really thank u for the free download file about the rapture please also send me regarding the second coming of our Lord Jesus videos please its a humble request as i m planning to give a sermon on the church

A previous commenter said, "I would be careful not to ascribe the motivation as to why they believe. Although Evangelicals are in error, I do not believe it is just a desire to be part of an exclusive club. (The orthodox, too, claim to be part of an exclusive club). Most evangelicals I know, believe in the rapture because they truly want Christ to return and to be with Him. Evangelicals may be ignorant of Church history but their love for Christ is genuine..."

I love this topic and would love to listen to your teachings, but I hear such an "eye-rolling" and condescending attitude in your tone, that it makes it difficult.

I already believe the teachings you are presenting because I have learned about them elsewhere, but was hoping for something that would be helpful for my Protestant family.

As Orthodox Christians, we should always be the ones setting the example of love and charity. We should also always remember that even evangelicals are simply "blinded by pernicious heresies."

I just don't see how the can-you-believe-these-people tone is helpful.

In Christ's love

Linda, Dr. may sound "can-you-believe-these-people" but hey, can you really believe? O am sure she means no ill.

Sometimes I wonder why people don't go to the first Church, but invent their own tradition and then point at Orthodox as to arrogant ones, even become militant. I have a few occasions with "evangelicals", being called idol worshiper, arrogant, unchristian, getting fired from a job.

Not to confuse anyone, I am not the "Linda" of 11/09 posting but, would like to comment as well.

I think it would be accurate to say that we all have a deep Love of Christ and share a passion for becoming closer to him. That being said; it is good for us to be reminded that we are all "children" of God. This word children is very important to have a better understanding of our brothers and sisters in Christ. We have only to look at our very own families to better understand the dynamics of our own human nature and relationship with our Heavenly Father. In observing how we behave to one another as we seek out God we see a familiar pattern. I liken the Orthodox Christian Church to the oldest sibling who was born "first". And our brother and sister churches younger siblings. As children we all want to please our fathers and mothers and we compete with our brothers and sisters for their affection and attention, wanting to be right, first, better, smarter and so on. So it is repeated with our Heavenly Father. Where now I am a mother, once I was a child. So here is what I think changes it for all of us. It lies in the word OMNI this is the word to be prayed and meditated on. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. Never divided, or diminished, all knowing, all seeing without end. If we can be still in this we loose our ego self and surrender to that which is greater. As an Orthodox Christian I cherish the teachings and practice the faith in humility as I am blessed for having been given this. Like the prodigal son we sometimes loose ourselves in this world, yet are welcomed home with great joy by our Father. My brothers and sisters of all faiths please do not be pained by the church that your brethren have found to worship in for it is for all of us to share and help us on our journey. I pray that it is with Love and Peace we will all be received. Thank you Dr Constantinou for such thought provoking discussions.